Shakedown run Sunday 7/11/2010 Walker

zukkev · Jul 13, 2010

Binder said:
That's going to happen anyways. Maybe if we were to "play ball" and build trails in a orderly fashion then the "idiots" may just join in and be constructive rather than destructive......It's my opinion and I've brought this to the attention of DNR officials that if you get people involved in putting fourth the work to build trails then they will respect it much more when it's done. Taking a hard line when you're (DNR) understaffed will only promote the idiots and it will turn into a huge mess.

This makes sense..

The_Shocker · Jul 13, 2010

japerry said:
I applaud the bikers for taking control of their trails. They build trails and then when DNR gets money, they incorporate them into the system. the 4 miles of trail that was just added last year was previously an unauthorized trail.

They don't sit with their tails tucked between their legs while they wait for the 'legal system' to provide trails for them. It'd be nice to see wheelers grow some balls and do the same.

Not much different than what has happened at Elbe. But just because the local DNR person is alright with having the trail system a certain way didn't mean that Olympia DNR knew about it. Just remember Lider is trying to show that DNR can't manage ORV use on their lands. You may just prove him right. And he would absolutely **** himself if he saw the Busywild.

japerry · Jul 13, 2010

The_Shocker said:
Not much different than what has happened at Elbe. But just because the local DNR person is alright with having the trail system a certain way didn't mean that Olympia DNR knew about it. Just remember Lider is trying to show that DNR can't manage ORV use on their lands. You may just prove him right. And he would absolutely **** himself if he saw the Busywild.

There is a problem here. He is right. DNR CANNOT manage ORV use on their lands. They have no money, resources, etc to make it happen.

So I want to define 'idiots'... my thought of them are those who tear up ditches, create trails going through creeks, causing obvious resource damage. But I do NOT believe those who are building trails with some environmental thought are idiots. I think they are the pioneers who are going to keep the trail system good.

Its our job (on this board, in our clubs, etc) to encourage responsible trail building over reckless trail building, which naturally requires those who work with DNR and understand the issues to help out.

In the biking community, the people building trails are at the highest spots of 'power' in regards to clubs, members, etc. They are not your idiot rednecks tearing stuff up.

We need to change the mentality that all unauthorized trail building is bad. Illegal != Bad. Infact, Jeep Cross is a perfect example of us taking the lead when DNR cannot. We've made bypasses so people won't try to go the dangerous, although legal way.

japerry · Jul 13, 2010

zukkev said:
Sure Rick, but if it's not maintained, it's lost/closed....whether it's worth it to keep it or not to some, it's lost...

Walker won't be closed. There is too much at stake politically to close it.

crash2 · Jul 13, 2010

japerry said:
I applaud the bikers for taking control of their trails. They build trails and then when DNR gets money, they incorporate them into the system. the 4 miles of trail that was just added last year was previously an unauthorized trail.

They don't sit with their tails tucked between their legs while they wait for the 'legal system' to provide trails for them. It'd be nice to see wheelers grow some balls and do the same.

Comparing bikes to us is like comparing a mouse to a dog--2 different animals. Granted both have there issues with resource's but still "we" are bigger and show alot more. Try sneaking 5 bikes down a trail and do the same with 5 wheelers.

As you stated in another post--those who are building the single track trails are being responsable about how they are being constructed and you can do so without being seen alot better than one of our big rigs.

But you give the notion of go ahead and build trails in the 4x4 cummunity well we have already seen the disasters that come from that.

But I understand what you are saying jacob about standing up to the machine--I just don't think we would get the response like some other user groups from the DNR.

crash2 · Jul 13, 2010

And for the record as long as this thread stays in its current nature I will keep it open. There is some good thought process's going on here.... :awesomework:

supsa · Jul 13, 2010

crash said:
And for the record as long as this thread stays in its current nature I will keep it open. There is some good thought process's going on here.... :awesomework:

Thank you :awesomework:

Money Mark · Jul 13, 2010

crash said:
But you give the notion of go ahead and build trails in the 4x4 community well we have already seen the disasters that come from that.

You have tried to calm the situation and show that un-organized wheelers are a problem. What you haven't conveyed in black and white is........are you with us or against us? Us being folks who are INTELLIGENTLY pushing the limits, rules and guidelines in order to get what we want........more 4x4 trails.

Where does the president of RTW stand on the issue of pioneering properly built (but not yet approved) 4x4 trails?

crash2 · Jul 13, 2010

Money Mark said:
You have tried to calm the situation and show that un-organized wheelers are a problem. What you haven't conveyed in black and white is........are you with us or against us? Us being folks who are INTELLIGENTLY pushing the limits, rules and guidelines in order to get what we want........more 4x4 trails.

Where does the president of RTW stand on the issue of pioneering properly built (but not yet approved) 4x4 trails?

As it stands now until the process can be shown to work RTW does not condone working outside the DNR's rules. We have built a good working relationship with the DNR and it has shown with where we currently are with the new reiter. If that trust is broken then that relationship could be bittered and I personally would hate to see that happen. But RTW doesn't not have any involvement with the happenings at Walker valley.

The_Shocker · Jul 13, 2010

I also understand where you are trying to go with this Jakob and I really hope it is the right route. As Crash said, it is easier to hide Single Track trails. Although you wont catch me riding on one. I ride what is on the map at Walker and that is it. I would love to just say "F" it and ride where I want to but I'm afraid if I do that then even more may be lost. I also don't want to be teaching my 11yo nephew who is riding with me that it is OK to break rules when it's convenient to. The REAL shocker is that in the past I would be the first person to flip off a cop, wheelie away and give him some excitement. Wheelie's are still fun, But I'm tired of running.

Thanks for keeping this thread open Crash. And thanks to the RTW for trying to take the high road and do things Legit.:awesomework:

Money Mark · Jul 13, 2010

crash said:
As it stands now until the process can be shown to work RTW does not condone working outside the DNR's rules.

Will RTW hinder (in any way) the progress folks, that are pioneering properly built (but not yet approved) 4x4 trails, could have?

I understand RTW is not directly involved with Walker, but as you have stated "......lead by example.....", How could a "trail watch" organization not step forward to prevent this this from happening?

Is anyone (or group) going to step forward to prevent pioneering properly built (but not yet approved) 4x4 trails?

japerry · Jul 13, 2010

Poor sam got his thread hijacked...

but I'm glad we're having this discussion, especially here. I don't think it deserves its own thread because it'd attract more attention than I think is needed.

crash2 · Jul 13, 2010

Money Mark said:
Will RTW hinder (in any way) the progress folks, that are pioneering properly built (but not yet approved) 4x4 trails, could have?

I understand RTW is not directly involved with Walker, but as you have stated "......lead by example.....", How could a "trail watch" organization not step forward to prevent this this from happening?

Is anyone (or group) going to step forward to prevent pioneering properly built (but not yet approved) 4x4 trails?

RTW's focus is at reiter. There are other groups/organizations to help with the other ORV designated areas. We as organizations are small and typicly undermanned for the trail usage we see. We simply don't have the resources to go outside the areas we are focused on. As I stated in my last reply and re-read it again we play by the DNR's rules plain and simple. If these actions were to happen at reiter you can bet we would hinder it because thats our focus and where our resources are going.

Playing on both sides of an electrical fence will only get you zapped agian and again.

crash2 · Jul 13, 2010

japerry said:
Poor sam got his thread hijacked...

but I'm glad we're having this discussion, especially here. I don't think it deserves its own thread because it'd attract more attention than I think is needed.

I don't think sam is too worried--he's still in heaven from getting out and wheeling after a long spell..

Money Mark · Jul 13, 2010

Thank you for your responses.:awesomework:

crash said:
Playing on both sides of an electrical fence will only get you zapped again and again.

Still waiting for my "zap".:corn:

japerry · Jul 13, 2010

So back to bikes and what Charlie and others have discovered... bikes have impact, and so do we. They also can travel a lot further. But this discussion isn't about the environmental impacts, its about whether unauthorized trail building is ethically wrong.

My point about the bikes is this: The people who are at the work parties, the DNR meetings, leading the LEGITIMATE opening of more trail at walker are the same people creating or helping create unauthorized trail.

PS. DNR knows my position. I've made it very clear what I think about trail building. Where I get respect from DNR is by the openness, willing to help at work parties, etc.

I'll make another point here: DNR would respect RTW as well if they decided to throw a huge protest when reiter closed, especially if the protest caused political backlash that might have caused someone their jobs. The Skagit Motorcycle club FOUGHT DNR when they called for a seasonal closure. SMC won that battle and DNR now listens very closely to their leadership.

DNR is a public entity. This means you have two ways to get respect: Political Power or doing what they say. Groups with political power are the ones who get their agenda through.

Which way have we gone to get their respect?