Shakedown run Sunday 7/11/2010 Walker

[crash2]

So back to bikes and what Charlie and others have discovered... bikes have impact, and so do we. They also can travel a lot further. But this discussion isn't about the environmental impacts, its about whether unauthorized trail building is ethically wrong.

My point about the bikes is this: The people who are at the work parties, the DNR meetings, leading the LEGITIMATE opening of more trail at walker are the same people creating or helping create unauthorized trail.

PS. DNR knows my position. I've made it very clear what I think about trail building. Where I get respect from DNR is by the openness, willing to help at work parties, etc.

I'll make another point here: DNR would respect RTW as well if they decided to throw a huge protest when reiter closed, especially if the protest caused political backlash that might have caused someone their jobs. The Skagit Motorcycle club FOUGHT DNR when they called for a seasonal closure. SMC won that battle and DNR now listens very closely to their leadership.

DNR is a public entity. This means you have two ways to get respect: Political Power or doing what they say. Groups with political power are the ones who get their agenda through.

Which way have we gone to get their respect?

Again you are talking about 2 different issues Jacob. When the DNR had talked about the seasonal closure there was a decent amount of time to work with. The Skagit motorcylce club has alot more resources at its request/more manpower and alot more ties.

With Reiter there was not much time to work with and RTW is still a small organization in comparison. Plus (and I am sure you know this) there was a buttload of money spent on preparing for the new Reiter in the 2 years prior.

If you look at history of "every single" unauthorized motorized area they have all come donw to one end. You have seen this, I have seen this and many others have. But with Reiter it was different. This is probably the first time in my own history that we would reclaim something after it was closed and be able to mold it into something we want. Reiter was doomed for a very long time but many wanted to ignore that fact.

 

[Money Mark]

Post #78

I try and play by the rules, but sometimes.....

You're playing both sides?

 

[Money Mark]

In other words, is Peanut going to turn us in for pioneering new trails?

She has her own "asshats-in-meadows" to deal with......ORV Trail Watch is not a threat.:awesomework:

 

[Boonie Buster]

You're playing both sides?

No, I still play by the rules, if you took the time to read what i said and not take it out of context you would see that. :hi:

I try and play by the rules, but sometimes the rules seem as though some city-slicker who has no idea what an evergreen tree looks like is making the calls.

 

[War-Jeeper]

I applaud the bikers for taking control of their trails. They build trails and then when DNR gets money, they incorporate them into the system. the 4 miles of trail that was just added last year was previously an unauthorized trail.

They don't sit with their tails tucked between their legs while they wait for the 'legal system' to provide trails for them. It'd be nice to see wheelers grow some balls and do the same.

I agree and you know exactly where i stand on this now that we have talked more closely on this whole issue Jakob:awesomework:

I just had this conversation last week with a friend......Bikers build trails non stop up there and DNR looks the other way while we ask to build 100 yards and get shut down. Is this what we get for following the rules and going within the system?.....It's a game and we're loosing right now.:booo: Maybe it's time to play a ball?:;

Wheres the Bat?

I understand what you're saying but I think if what's there were more worthwhile you would have more people interested in keeping it.:;

:awesomework::awesomework::awesomework: Bingo

That's going to happen anyways. Maybe if we were to "play ball" and build trails in a orderly fashion then the "idiots" may just join in and be constructive rather than destructive......It's my opinion and I've brought this to the attention of DNR officials that if you get people involved in putting fourth the work to build trails then they will respect it much more when it's done. Taking a hard line when you're (DNR) understaffed will only promote the idiots and it will turn into a huge mess.

Again Bingo:awesomework:

There is a problem here. He is right. DNR CANNOT manage ORV use on their lands. They have no money, resources, etc to make it happen.

So I want to define 'idiots'... my thought of them are those who tear up ditches, create trails going through creeks, causing obvious resource damage. But I do NOT believe those who are building trails with some environmental thought are idiots. I think they are the pioneers who are going to keep the trail system good.

Its our job (on this board, in our clubs, etc) to encourage responsible trail building over reckless trail building, which naturally requires those who work with DNR and understand the issues to help out.

In the biking community, the people building trails are at the highest spots of 'power' in regards to clubs, members, etc. They are not your idiot rednecks tearing stuff up.

We need to change the mentality that all unauthorized trail building is bad. Illegal != Bad. Infact, Jeep Cross is a perfect example of us taking the lead when DNR cannot. We've made bypasses so people won't try to go the dangerous, although legal way.

Bingo!

Comparing bikes to us is like comparing a mouse to a dog--2 different animals. Granted both have there issues with resource's but still "we" are bigger and show alot more. Try sneaking 5 bikes down a trail and do the same with 5 wheelers.

As you stated in another post--those who are building the single track trails are being responsable about how they are being constructed and you can do so without being seen alot better than one of our big rigs.

But you give the notion of go ahead and build trails in the 4x4 cummunity well we have already seen the disasters that come from that.

But I understand what you are saying jacob about standing up to the machine--I just don't think we would get the response like some other user groups from the DNR.

Comparing them is perfectly legitamate, we are ORV users and so are they, why should we fall under different scrutiny for our pioneering of new trails? We may make 100 yards of trail where the bikers have cut maybe several miles in the same time frame i really dont see how they are much different at all in enviromental damage and legality whys....

And for the record as long as this thread stays in its current nature I will keep it open. There is some good thought process's going on here.... :awesomework:

thank you!

I also understand where you are trying to go with this Jakob and I really hope it is the right route. As Crash said, it is easier to hide Single Track trails. Although you wont catch me riding on one. I ride what is on the map at Walker and that is it. I would love to just say "F" it and ride where I want to but I'm afraid if I do that then even more may be lost. I also don't want to be teaching my 11yo nephew who is riding with me that it is OK to break rules when it's convenient to. The REAL shocker is that in the past I would be the first person to flip off a cop, wheelie away and give him some excitement. Wheelie's are still fun, But I'm tired of running.



Thanks for keeping this thread open Crash. And thanks to the RTW for trying to take the high road and do things Legit.:awesomework:

See here is the issue is it isnt an "f" it mentality, its lets think about a logical way to use the resources we have to make a really awesome trail with the least amount of damage to DNR's resources. We arent just going to blaze through the woods with no plan:awesomework:

Poor sam got his thread hijacked...

but I'm glad we're having this discussion, especially here. I don't think it deserves its own thread because it'd attract more attention than I think is needed.

Hey no worries i like the discussion going on here its very good!

I don't think sam is too worried--he's still in heaven from getting out and wheeling after a long spell..

This is true!

 

[japerry]

haha awesome stuff...

something that just came to mind. Remember folks, we're talking about creating/using trail with a designated ORV park

this is totally different than Reiter. If we want new trails at walker, the SEPA process doesn't bring out Bill Lider. The environmentalists barely even know about Walker, and for the most part will leave it alone (unless they can use it to further their agenda at Reiter)

Also note, DNRs main gripe back in 2001 wasn't unauthorized trails WITHIN the park: to quote bill:

We are pleased to be able to provide a managed ORV site. It

 

[Money Mark]

No, I still play by the rules, if you took the time to read what i said and not take it out of context you would see that. :hi:

So you won't be helping at Walker, with us?

 

[War-Jeeper]

So you won't be helping at Walker, with us?

Its ok Boonie never wheels anyway:haha::awesomework:

 

[supsa]

You know Im with ya so just give me a call when needed

 

[Boonie Buster]

So you won't be helping at Walker, with us?

Correct. I won't be helping at Walker as I honestly have no idea where Walker is. I have no future plans to remedy it either. I didnt help at Reiter as indicated by my lack of presence at all group clean-ups. There has never been any proof or evidence that i've picked up trash at any campground/trail/clearing/etc. There is no proof of me doing anything beneficial for offroading or any other outdoor activities I participate in. I'm a User to the fullest extent.

Sam is right, I never wheel! :fawkdancesmiley::haha: