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trails disscusion
- Thread starter Gaylord
- Start date
It's not the selfish few anymore and that's exactly the attitude that is creating the divide. The big tire crowd is becoming the NORM. We've seen many polls on various websites and 35-36" tires are now AVERAGE so you're going to have to get with the times... There are still TONS of trails for the smaller tire vehicles to run and only a few that REQUIRE tires over 35 or 36". Where you are mistaken is that they have ruined trails for the MANY when in fact they ARE the many, and the small tire guys have become the few.
I don't agree with destroying the trails obviously but to those who are bitter about the busy and similar trails being changed... get over it! What's done is done and your animosity is only serving create problems, not solve them.
Edit: Since my comment of "get over it!" was slightly misunderstood, I'll clarify. It's time to move on. Staying bitter about what's done and cannot be changed, serves no purpose.
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Going "up" the trail. The line on the left is the original line.
Again dale your equating the people that frequent the bbs's as the majority and their not. Just the newer and sometimes younger crowd that enjoys the web wheeling as well as real wheeling. I just wish these "newer" style wheelers showed as much respect for the trails as the "older" types that have maintained them for years. Problem is the "newer" ones just dont seem to be willing to put in the time to keep the trails in shape. (as evidenced in recent work partys) So who is going to keep the trails open ?
I would disagree or perhaps refine the point. For the new people getting into the sport large tires are much more of the norm and are certainly the trend. At Elbe a few weeks ago probably 80% of the rigs there would have been considered "big tire" rigs and a whole bunch of those were JEEPS.
You are completely correct that the newer wheelers (as a rule) don't seem to be willing to put in the time that the old timers have in the past. That DOES spell demise for our trails. In recent work parties at Elbe anyway, we didn't have ANY old-timers helping out that I recall (athough I didn't see everyone that was there). We did see an influx of some younger folks and hopefully Joe can keep this rolling. I should clarify even a little more, an influx of newer wheelers as a few weren't so young but new to the sport. It wasn't the 200 people that we saw at the focus group but it was a better turnout than we've had for a while.
I think losing the help from the old-timers has really hurt. There's a lot of knowledge being lost with their absence. I find that a shame.
Unfortunately Dale, THAT attitude is only serving to create problems as well. Not solve them.
It's a two way street folks, and it's about respect. I see the newer crowd crapping on the older crowd and the older crowd being unwilling to listen to the newer crowd. Here I am stuck in the middle, I understand the wants/needs of both but neither side wants to listen to the other at this point.
The fact that the new crowd has no respect for those that have been offroading longer than many of us have been alive is a major problem. The fact that the older crowd is so stuck in their ways they don't want to change is the next biggest problem.
I equate this to having a party at your house. One of your new friends, brings a friend over. All is good until the friend of a friend does a lawnjob in your front lawn tearing up your nice yard that you puts many hours and much $$$ in to. Would you accept your friend telling you to get over it? Doubtfull, so why treat those that have been maintaining the trails longer than any of us like that?
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To put some perspective on this.
Question: Would you be willing to help the DNR shut down Elbe?
What is happening at Busy is essentially the same thing to the old-timers. They are essentially loosing the busywild and I'm sure many are wondering which one might be next.
Out at Tahuya, the approach has been to not wack the existing trails too hard, but add challenges for the bigger rigs. Including a future XXX that we just need the right time of year, the time, and the materials to all show up together. In the meantime we keep on closing off illegal bypasses created by bored drivers.
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I'll put a different slant. When I was playing semi-pro hockey, did I get mad because the young kids were coming up and getting faster (OK, it was me getting slower). The rinks got bigger to accomodate THEIR style of hockey whereas I grew up with and liked the small rink where there was a lot more contact. Should I be mad that the rink and the game didn't fit my style of play anymore?
My response was to recognize that the game was changing so I took a step back in playing and took over running the team instead. I UNDERSTAND the frustration with essentially losing the busy because they're no longer able to run it but they can't blame the younger crowd with far superior technology available to them, from taking advantage of it. This is a testosterone sport. Always has been and alway will be. If you can build a bigger and better rig, it's going to be done and that's where the younger crowd is going. The old-timers (or more experienced wheelers) should be leading the young kids to understand trail ettiquite, teaching them how to build bridges, how to work with the DNR to get what you want, how to repair a mud hole or correct a drainage problem. Instead, at least in terms of Elbe, they have chosen to wash their hands of it because they don't get to play on ONE trail. There' WAY more mileage out there still very suitable to their rigs that they don't need to abandon an entire trail system and leave it to the dogs simply because they lost one trail because the "GAME" has changed.
I KNOW that within the various clubs, the old-timers are doing just that, it's not like they've just quit. But all in all they've dropped Elbe from their list of things they care about and I think that's very unfortunate for the sport as a whole. The younger guys could learn a LOT from the old-timers.
Joe is a little more PC than I am, so maybe he'll have better luck getting them involved again.:awesomework:
We can't go back and UNWHACK the Busy. What's done is done, the game has changed on that trail. The rest of the park is also going to be getting harder. Not to the extent of the busy, but adding technical challenges to existing trails. Rainier Vista is being changed because it was a virtually unused trail and when completed, should take some of the stress off the busy by offering a similar challenge trail. Unfortunately, a lot of this came 5 years or more too late. If the foresight and willingness of the DNR was in place, the busy could be different today. But again, what's done is done and yes, it' time to get over it and move on.
I' ve been hearing about this XXX trail for a couple of years. Travis you know more than anyone, just give me a date and I can get the man power to help do this.
But.... I think a lot of it has to do with pride. I have offered help to the QP's many times but I never get an email or anything asking or trying to organize a date. The last time I attended one of your meeting's I asked about the next/future work party. You guys kinda drew a blank face and didn't have an answer.
Set a date, give me the date, and We'll (you and I) will organize a work party.
MyDixieWrecked
Well-Known Member
yup saturday the busy was a cake walk even my little green toyota kept up with the bitg dogs in ther buggies. the worst part of elbe is the damn gravle road. it makes me break stuff
CHOP SHOP
Well-Known Member
leave the busy alone so I can drive on stumps.:beer:
You do realize that is akin to telling the older crowd they are too old and need to go out to the pasture to make way for the younger crowd.
I don't know if that's what you intended when you wrote that, but it sounded a lot like telling the older folks they need to hang up their keys and work the big picture for the younger crowd.
The younger guys need to be willing to listen. The younger guys also need to be willing to respect what their "elders" have done for the last 50 years. Of the older crowd I have talked to, they tend to feel there is little/no respect for what they have done and based on the actions of the newer crowd. Based on what I read online I woudln't say that is a totally unfair determination.
Here's something else to ponder. Of the work parties that go on out there, how often do you see an owner of a buggy on 40's show up to help mend a trail built for those on 33's and keep it that way? In my experience that is RARE, and the few that do tend to have been in the sport for a decade or more and decided to build their rig to that point so they understand what I am talking about.
So, are you seriously asking the "older crowd" to help "improve" trail they have known for decades to the point that they can't drive it anymore. Then at the same time never offer to help them work on trails suited for their vehicles? (Dale you may help, but in general the younger community doesn't.)
Seriously, I'm not looking for a fight here. Just pointing out what I have seen, the feelings behind it (the non-gay type) and just offering something to think about.
I' ve been hearing about this XXX trail for a couple of years. Travis you know more than anyone, just give me a date and I can get the man power to help do this.
But.... I think a lot of it has to do with pride. I have offered help to the QP's many times but I never get an email or anything asking or trying to organize a date. The last time I attended one of your meeting's I asked about the next/future work party. You guys kinda drew a blank face and didn't have an answer.
Set a date, give me the date, and We'll (you and I) will organize a work party.
I'll be pushing it right after the fun run.
The challenge is just pulling the design, materials and time together during a time of year when it's possible to do the work. It's either so wet it'll turn in to a gigantic mud mess or so dry it's like trying to work with sand once you break the surface.
I will let you guys know though.
(For those wondering, the design is geared toward making it very hard for a locked up low geared rig on 38's to get through.)
I could not disagree more. Go to Liberty on Memorial day and take a count of rigs with 36 and under tires as compared to over that. You will see "we" are still the vast majority. The guys I wheel with all run 35's or smaller with nothing wider than a TJ. Just because a guy with big meats runs in a group of nothing but big meats does not make them the majority although he may get that feeling.
The big tires, wide axle guys need to stay the hell off the "jeep trails" . Unfortunately they won't and the added erosion will continue to increase the flames from the environmentalists and close our trails.
In the 70s and 80's there were plenty of guys with full size K-5's and such running on monster ground hawgs, but they were smart and did not run the Jeep trails. The respect went out the window in the 90's to the "run what ya brung" attitude, and it has ruined it for all of us.
I appreciate a well built buggy, and would love to build one some day, but I know the roll of that vehicle and would keep it were it belongs, in the wide open country and the rocks.
This has been an argument that Will not go away and it's just my opinion. If I continue it would just fuel the flames so I'll leave it at that.
I can see the confusion. It was more to the point that the game changes as you get older and their role in the game changes. I could still play hockey but not how I used to. (I don't because of time more than anything else.)
I'm not going to disagree with that point.
In my experience, I've rarely seen that crowd show up at any work party, let alone to improve a trail built for those on 33s. That doesn't mean they don't, I've just not seen them.
Thanks for considering me in the younger crowd. At my age, I'll take it anywhere I can get it LOL!
No, I'm asking the older crowd to pass down their knowledge and experience so that maybe this kind of thing won't CONTINUE to happen.
Go to Elbe on the same weekend and I'm pretty sure you'd see just the opposite.
So perhaps clarified... for those that NOW run Elbe, those that run tire 35-36" and over are the majority.
I'm all for different trails for different vehicles and different drivers. I don't believe that any one trail can meet everyone's needs.
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This is a really good conversation.
I guess I fit right in with the in between group. Like I said I've only been into it for two or three years but I'm out wheelin at least 2.5 times a month. I've found I like the work parties so you will see me there in the future.
One thing I would like to point out is though I can see that the big tire/power buggies are capable of hogging out a trail like the Busy does not mean all the buggy drivers are using them like that. I have been in groups with a couple huge buggies and they were the easiest on the trail. They just brought the rpm slightly off idle and crawled right over sections that had rigs like mine bucking around and spinning the tires. I've seen the best driving AND the most reckless disregard for the trail come from both big buggies and open/open moderate build rigs.
I think trails get torn up by the drivers more than by the monster rigs. But I can see how you could get bored and hence creative on the trail with a buggie.
As far as the old school / new school thing goes I'm 29. Most of the people I run into out there are cool but when it comes to the older guys the thing that gets me is this mentality that if you don't drive an old CJ you shouldn't be on the trail. I run a ZJ ( probably the largest rig you should try to fit on these trails out here and my body sure shows it:redneck: ) and sure I catch crap for it. Well, I catch crap until the group realizes what I can do with it anyway. The Yotas, Samis, XJs, TJ-YJs, etc are all cool but too often have I been completely cold shouldered by older dudes in the flat fenders. By that I mean I've been in a group dragging a really broken rig off the trail and with daylight almost gone, temperature dropping fast and only a quick winch pull to get moving again ( no working winch in front of broken rig, ) watched as a group of flat fenders saddle up and drive off the trail, through the woods and around us because they would not help " A bunch of idiot kids in soccer mom rigs. " We were five ZJs almost all locked on 33 inch + tires. It really seems to me the older crowd actively does not want to be cool with the younger crowd. In my experience this leads the younger crowd to make their own rules. So the younger crowd make their own rules as the magazines are showing them pictures of buggies turning around in sewer pipes and telling them you ain't nuthin unless your building a front HP 60.
I guess I fit right in with the in between group. Like I said I've only been into it for two or three years but I'm out wheelin at least 2.5 times a month. I've found I like the work parties so you will see me there in the future.
One thing I would like to point out is though I can see that the big tire/power buggies are capable of hogging out a trail like the Busy does not mean all the buggy drivers are using them like that. I have been in groups with a couple huge buggies and they were the easiest on the trail. They just brought the rpm slightly off idle and crawled right over sections that had rigs like mine bucking around and spinning the tires. I've seen the best driving AND the most reckless disregard for the trail come from both big buggies and open/open moderate build rigs.
I think trails get torn up by the drivers more than by the monster rigs. But I can see how you could get bored and hence creative on the trail with a buggie.
As far as the old school / new school thing goes I'm 29. Most of the people I run into out there are cool but when it comes to the older guys the thing that gets me is this mentality that if you don't drive an old CJ you shouldn't be on the trail. I run a ZJ ( probably the largest rig you should try to fit on these trails out here and my body sure shows it:redneck: ) and sure I catch crap for it. Well, I catch crap until the group realizes what I can do with it anyway. The Yotas, Samis, XJs, TJ-YJs, etc are all cool but too often have I been completely cold shouldered by older dudes in the flat fenders. By that I mean I've been in a group dragging a really broken rig off the trail and with daylight almost gone, temperature dropping fast and only a quick winch pull to get moving again ( no working winch in front of broken rig, ) watched as a group of flat fenders saddle up and drive off the trail, through the woods and around us because they would not help " A bunch of idiot kids in soccer mom rigs. " We were five ZJs almost all locked on 33 inch + tires. It really seems to me the older crowd actively does not want to be cool with the younger crowd. In my experience this leads the younger crowd to make their own rules. So the younger crowd make their own rules as the magazines are showing them pictures of buggies turning around in sewer pipes and telling them you ain't nuthin unless your building a front HP 60.
deerlick
Well-Known Member
This is rediculous if anyone hear thinks us big tire guys cause all the damage u are dead wrong. when my buggy goes thru busy it rarely spins a tire causing little harm to the trail, when my friends tj on 33's goes thru it is spinning tires diggin holes and bouncing oof trees. If it so hard on the area for my buggy to be on a stump, then why is no one bitching about a video on this thread of a JEEP tearing the **** out of a hole on the same trail if u look at the stump i was on there is hardly a mark, and who the **** cares if they cared so much for the tree it wouldnt have been cut down in the first place.
You've just proved that you ARE the problem. You also have proved the point that you have spent little or no time working with the USFS or DNR to understand why they care.
You were intentionally driving OFF the trail. That is the problem. I didn't watch the vid of the jeep but if he was on the trail then it was legal. I notice that you completely avoided the point of fact that what you did was NOT ON THE TRAIL. Why is that, so hard to understand the point.
PS, I didn't suggest that big tire guys cause the problem. I am one of them and I don't feel that I cause the problem either. I was pointing out that was was done in THAT particular picture was a problem because it was OFF THE TRAIL.
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