Down and Dirty Transaxle Build

[patooyee]

Here's that video I was talking about. He did it with a 4l80 but like I said, its all the same crap at the transmission.

4l80e full manual with no computer

Here's an excerpt from GM's 4t65 performance build book:

"An easy and cheap way to shift the 4T65E is with two toggle switches. The toggle switches need to switch ground to pins A and B in the pass through connectors. To operate the transmission turn both switches on. This will put the transmission in 1st gear. To shift into 2nd gear shut off the switch to solenoid A off. To shift into 3rd gear shut off the switch to solenoid B. For 4th gear turn the switch for solenoid A back on.

SHIFT CONTROLLERS

TCI and CompuShift offer automatic shift controllers that will operate the 4T65E Transmission. These are excellent choices for street strip applications. An inexpensive alternative for drag racing and occasional street use is the MSD Programmable shift controller part number 7559. (Fig. 234) This controller was developed to shift a Lenco type transmission. With a little ingenuity it can easily be adapted for use on the 4T65E transmission.

Two relays are needed to convert the system for this application. The MSD controller needs two inputs a: Launch / Reset and Shift Override. The Launch / Reset button resets the controller to first gear both in electrical outputs and in the shift sequence. The Shift Override button manually up-shifts the controller. In first gear the controller does not output a signal. When the 1-2 shift is made it turns on a 12v signal. When the 2-3 shift is made another 12V signal is turned on. Since the solenoid needs a ground to activate, relays are needed. Ground should be connected to the input of two relays. The Normally Closed output of the 1st relay should be connected to pin A on the transmission pass through connector. The normally closed output of the 2nd relay should be connected to pin B of the transmission pass through connector. One side of the coil of each relay should be connected to ground. The 1st shift output from the transmission controller should be connected to the other side of the coil of the 1st relay. The 2nd shift output from the transmission controller should be connected to the other side of the coil on the 2nd relay. The normally open side of the relay can be used for gear indicator lights. Two lights can be connected to power and the other side of the lights connected to the normally open side of the first and second relays. When the transmission is in 1st both lights will be off, in second the 1st light will turn on and in 3rd the second light will come on.

• MSD Programmable Shift Controller PN 7559 (Fig. 234)

Here's a link to the book itself:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1XdiIKdc8_AM1RlVndDS1NkTFE/view?usp=sharing

It was published back in 2004 or 6 I believe so some of the info and part numbers are a little outdated.

 

[zjtrey]

daddy likes!

Its a lot to think about… The first thing that came to mind is the AW4 controllers that are big in the xj/zj market.. I wonder if one of those could be adapted to work?

Gearing is going to be a bit goofy in this thing, I would love to have more control over what the transmission is doing like if I'm running my high range in I'd like to be able to lock it in first but if I'm running my low range, it could be nice to have it start in second or third to get wheel speed up quickly.. and compression braking going down steeps.

So if i choose to go with the two switches, do i eliminate the trans wires going to my pcm and wire them straight to the switches?

This is the first automatic rig i've had so all this is new to me.. forgive my ignorance...

 

[patooyee]

daddy likes!

Its a lot to think about… The first thing that came to mind is the AW4 controllers that are big in the xj/zj market.. I wonder if one of those could be adapted to work?

Gearing is going to be a bit goofy in this thing, I would love to have more control over what the transmission is doing like if I'm running my high range in I'd like to be able to lock it in first but if I'm running my low range, it could be nice to have it start in second or third to get wheel speed up quickly.. and compression braking going down steeps.

So if i choose to go with the two switches, do i eliminate the trans wires going to my pcm and wire them straight to the switches?

This is the first automatic rig i've had so all this is new to me.. forgive my ignorance...

As you can probably tell, this isn't a very standard thing to do just because very few people in the world would have the need to do it. You're not going to find a ton of info on it as a result. I think it would be possible to only partially eliminate the TCM but you would most certainly need programming done to override the obvious codes that would be thrown as the computer sees that its commanded input isn't being achieved. This might eb worthwhile though as you could allow the TCM to continue controlling the line pressure / shift firmness as well as control the torque converter. I believe those functions may also be programmable. I don't know for sure but I would hypothesize that it would be easiest to either completely eliminate the TCM or completely keep all of its stock functions and set it up as it would have been in stock form though. Its going to just require some experimentation and research on your part. I'm happy to help as much as possible but without the stuff here in front of me its difficult.

Its also worth noting that your trans does have what's called a manual control switch in stock form. It allows it a certain degree of full manual control. I don't believe it lets you start out in 2nd or 3rd though. And I think the TCM prevents a downshift when above certain RPM's. Those are just software safeties though. There is nothing on the trans itself physically keeping those things from happening. The computer is just programmed not to allow them. By bypassing the shift solenoids past the computer you are basically overriding all the programmed safeties to achieve full manual control. I have HPTuners. I'll try to find a stock calibration for your vehicle, see what all can be programmed / taken out. That will be a few days though as I'm not on my computer that has HPT at the moment.

The AW4 shifters are what I was referring to above for the Jeep shifters I think. The guy that makes those shifters is an active Pirate member. You might look into trying to get a hold of him to see if you can pick his brain.

 

[Pearce97]

R.DesJardin on PBB has a setup that works with a Winters shifter too. Pretty cool stuff.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/motor-tranny-t-case-performance/891861-radesigns-products-llc-aw4-shifter.html

 

[zjtrey]

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/chevy/1896074-4l60e-4l80e-manual-shift-control.html

it appears RAD has it all worked out..

 

[patooyee]

I looked up the logic for the 4L60/65/80/85, it is the same as the 4t65. That shifter might just work perfectly for you. I didn't know he had started on one for the GM transmissions yet. I would consult him first obviously but it looks very promising.

 

[zjtrey]

I spoke with Rory at RAD designs, very cool guy and easy to talk to…

Answered all my questions in about 10 minutes and I placed an order for his rail type shifter.. with his setup you use a switch to turn on and off the TCM controls.. switch on, you control which forward gear you're in with his setup, switch off, TCM controls as normal.. this will allow me to put the shifter in drive and select which gear using the rail then i can grab reverse or neutral with a short throw of the shifter.. should be

 

[patooyee]

That's badass. So the TCM controls line pressure and the converter lockup all the time? I think if I were doing it I would look into eliminating the TCM altogether. I already know that without input the line pressure is just full on all the time. I think I could live with that. That just leaves torque converter lockup which can be controlled by a manual switch if you want. I'm thinking that's the route I would go.

 

[paradisepwoffrd]

Re:

His setups are designed around ppl who want to street and offroad their vehicles, this wanting to retain factory style shifting.

For you it would likely be in manual control all the time, so I'm with jj on trying to eliminate the tcm

Sent from my SM-N900T using Tapatalk

 

[zjtrey]

that is how it works… when you have the rail shifter turned on, the TCM is off...

 

[patooyee]

that is how it works… when you have the rail shifter turned on, the TCM is off...

We're saying to dumb down the system and increase simplicity to not even install or wire the PCM. Run everything manually via switches.

And I don't think the TCM is off when you switch it to manual, is it? I think its still controlling line pressure and converter lockup if I'm not mistaken? Unless there is a provision on the shifter for TC lockup ...

We're saying run full line pressure by not hooking up the PC valve. And wire the TC valve up to a simple switch on or near the shifter that you manually control. Let it spin / multiply torque whenever you want and then lock it up when you just want to go fast. You'll probably only lock it up in 4th gear anyway. I dont' know though ... maybe locking it up in lower gears could be a way to negate some of the plethora of gearing you're going to have?

 

[paradisepwoffrd]

Re: Re: Re: Down and Dirty Transaxle Build

We're saying to dumb down the system and increase simplicity to not even install or wire the PCM. Run everything manually via switches.

And I don't think the TCM is off when you switch it to manual, is it? I think its still controlling line pressure and converter lockup if I'm not mistaken? Unless there is a provision on the shifter for TC lockup ...

We're saying run full line pressure by not hooking up the PC valve. And wire the TC valve up to a simple switch on or near the shifter that you manually control. Let it spin / multiply torque whenever you want and then lock it up when you just want to go fast. You'll probably only lock it up in 4th gear anyway. I dont' know though ... maybe locking it up in lower gears could be a way to negate some of the plethora of gearing you're going to have?

Just want to make sure it's unlocked if switching gears. That's typically not good on them.

I'm not sure about this shifter, but iirc the jeep shifters can eliminate the tcm if you use a certain setup

 

[zjtrey]

theres a separate switch to wire in to control tc lock up..I don't anticipate needing it that much. its my understanding when you engage the manual mode it defaults to full line pressure.. I have considered wiring it up to run manual only but i like the idea of redundancy if something were to get screwy..

 

[patooyee]

What would be redundant in this case? You're saying most of the time you would be controlling it manually via the solenoids? If something screwed up it would have to be either hardware or the solenoids themselves. So by switching to the TCM at that point it wouldn't have any more power to resolve any issues than you did since it also achieves control via the solenoids.

Or do I have it backwards and the full manual IS the redundancy?

Either way, I would personally much prefer eliminating the hundreds of wires required to control the trans via the TCM. I consider myself somewhat of a GM harness guru even and I still say get rid of it all if you can. The engine alone is going to be bad enough.

 

[Pearce97]

I'm giving this shifter a try as well. I think you guys are over thinking what Trey is doing with it. Because we can, we are including the switch to turn the shifter on or off. There is also a second switch included to control TC lock up, if you want too. Doing it that way just gives you both options is all. And for me at least, the trans wiring is already all there.
As for TC lock up in a particular gear, I may have to play with that one a bit. I've got the switch and resistor to be able to lock the TC on command for my Dodge, but not wired it in yet. But that's for towing. If for example I want to keep the TC locked while pulling a hill in a specific gear, or cruising at lower than highway speeds and want to hold a locked TC in a lower gear. And yes, do not shift gears with a locked TC.

 

[patooyee]

Super cool. I'm glad you guys are doing this.

 

[zjtrey]

got the motor to run today… … I'll try to post the video later

 

[BNBOFFROAD]

3800 startup: http://youtu.be/z4WbpCb56L4

 

[onepieceatatime]

Re:

Sweet!

 

[mtublazer2]

Now you can put the seats back in and let the motor make vroom vroom sounds for you!