Cage failures

[Digger 5]

2.The accident that spawned this thread was extreme to say the least, so should we all be building cages for this extreme or for the much more normal slow speed flops and rolls that we encounter?

Myself, I think building for the extreme is too much over kill for the wheeling I have seen here in WA and UT, but if your going to get into Racing like Pook is doing or like King of the Hammers, then I think the extreme is the correct cage build to go with.

If this is your opinion, you obviously haven't wheeled much in WA or UT. There are many places in WA (primarily eastern WA) that have the potential for extreme multiple roll accidents. Sure, we all see more flops than true rolls but **** happens you need to be prepared for 'worst case', not 'best case'. In Utah, Moab for example, just an everyday simple roll on Potato salad Hill can destroy a good cage. In rock like that rigs don't always stop after the initial roll. They can slide and then roll again. Rock is, obviously, very unforgiving and can do significantly more damage than a similar roll in soft dirt.

Harnesses....hmmm. I'm a bit confused about them. I've got them in both rigs and rarely use them(seat belt -yes, shoulder harness-no). Shoulder harnesses severly limit your ability to see your tire and there are many times that if you couldn't see the obstacle you'd roll and need the harness. Spotters eliminate this issue but I rarely ever use a spotter on the trail. It seems as if when you use them you can't drive as well and need them. Maybe in a buggy with see thru floors this isn't an issue but in a full body rig..

 

[Damnyankee]

Dom

Okay, I'm going to bestow a little knowledge for those that think DOM is the beats all. (it CAN be the best material)

Dom has a seam, its drawn out while its being Drawn Over a Mandral.
There are different types of DOM.

Structural DOM is NO good for a cage. so just because its DOM does not mean its worth a crap.
Stuctural DOM has as little as 1/3rd flash weld (ya, not full penetration) do you think thats good? DOM can be Hot rolled or cold rolled.

If you want good DOM, it needs to be COLD ROLLED and must be MECHANICAL DOM. (and should be atleast 1020(80ksi) or 1026 (87ksi).

nobody here has touched on 1026 CREW (cold rolled electric weld) people think that because you can see the seam, its no good. well thats BS.
1026 Crew is about 65KSI. (1020 / 1018 is about 60ksi)

people are alos saying that HREW in the right design is OK, but in all honesty its crap for what we use, bends easy. (and only 45ksi)

My EXO cage is :rb: but ts functional. its make of 1026 CREW. (1.5 x .120)
It has survived a roll and it was drug on its roof for about 20 feet. Wll it survive a roll such as the toyota at naches.. No way. I would lke to see a cage (other than a nascar Cromoly cage) hold up to that fall. I highly doubt any cage would.

But i get crap for it because its not DOM, Yet it is stronger than "stuctural DOM"

and Pipe, A500 pipe is stronger than HREW, or sturctural DOM.
The main difference from pipe to tube is pipe is measured fromt the ID and is not as TRUE (because of fabrication tolerances) while Tube is measured from teh OD and is much more "true". The reason we use tubing in mechanical applications is because pipe, but on a lathe or machine tents to wip around because of (for lack of a better word) trueness tolerances.

So the next time somebody says I'm building your Cage from DOM, ask them

what kind of DOM?

(FYI CREW is half the price of mechanical DOM and 75% as strong. While HREW is Very cheap but only 56% as strong as mechanical DOM)

:beer:

 

[Binder]

people are alos saying that HREW in the right design is OK, but in all honesty its crap for what we use, bends easy. (and only 45ksi)

That there is a BS blanket statement. If you don't know the application you can't possibly say a material is not adequate.

 

[Binder]

Good material, bad weld.
My buddy's EB cage after several rolls.
!.75x.125 DOM Tube with a crappy cold weld.

I hate to tell you but that weld didn't fail, the parent metal did. The weld may have weakened the parent metal but the weld didn't fail.

 

[Damnyankee]

That there is a BS blanket statement. If you don't know the application you can't possibly say a material is not adequate.

Fair enough.

My comment was for "building a cage" for supports and gussets here and there, seat supports, ect. it would be fine.

 

[Broken Again]

That there is a BS blanket statement. If you don't know the application you can't possibly say a material is not adequate.

Who was the guy who posted that test?

Oh yeah...It was me...:fawkdancesmiley::fawkdancesmiley:
http://www.nw-wheelers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36041&highlight=Hrew+test&page=7 post#66

 

[Broken Again]

I hate to tell you but that weld didn't fail, the parent metal did. The weld may have weakened the parent metal but the weld didn't fail.

Still bad weld made the substrait weak.

 

[Damnyankee]

I hate to tell you but that weld didn't fail, the parent metal did. The weld may have weakened the parent metal but the weld didn't fail.

yup:beer:

 

[Damnyankee]

I've been doing some reading all over the site today about cages in general.
Everybody says exo's are gay. thats cool, to each their own.

This is what I don't get.
An exo GENERALLY is weeker because of lack cross bracing, there isn't much to keep it from being pushed over.

But i've seen a few internal cages with NO cross bracing, what makes it stronger than an exo?

Serious question.

 

[Binder]

This is what I don't get.
An exo GENERALLY is weeker because of lack cross bracing, there isn't much to keep it from being pushed over.

But i've seen a few internal cages with NO cross bracing, what makes it stronger than an exo?

Nothing. That's what we usually call a bad cage which gives a guy a false sense of security....

 

[crash2]

Nothing. That's what we usually call a bad cage which gives a guy a false sense of security....

True--but taking an internal vs. external with the same amount of cross bracing--the internal will survive a heck of alot better--not saying its better than a properly cross braced cage...

Reason being the spans from A-B-C and across are generally shorter. With an internal you also have to crush the cab first before it even hits the internal--where with an external the tubing is starting to fail before it hits the sheet metal..

 

[Damnyankee]

True--but taking an internal vs. external with the same amount of cross bracing--the internal will survive a heck of alot better--not saying its better than a properly cross braced cage...

Reason being the spans from A-B-C and across are generally shorter. With an internal you also have to crush the cab first before it even hits the internal--where with an external the tubing is starting to fail before it hits the sheet metal..

good info crash, but on a jeep or open top its a mute point because there is no sheet metal. So basically a "jeep" with no cross braceing is about as good as a :rb: exo
as you stated, the span distance makes a difference (agreed, this is simple mechanics) but that can be easily overcome.

FYI, i'm not being an ass, i' trying to learn somthing.:beer:

 

[CHOP SHOP]

Its all realitive.

A short spanned internal cage typicaly gets 1.5 inch tubing, while I do all my exos out of 1.75 and 2 inch material.

Problem solved.:awesomework:

 

[crash2]

good info crash, but on a jeep or open top its a mute point because there is no sheet metal. So basically a "jeep" with no cross braceing is about as good as a :rb: exo
as you stated, the span distance makes a difference (agreed, this is simple mechanics) but that can be easily overcome.

FYI, i'm not being an ass, i' trying to learn somthing.:beer:

And thats why I started this thead.

True--but you are still working with shorter spans. Take my rig for example. I have no cross bracing at the b-pillars and that was due to being able to get into the back seat of the rig. I had to make a diecision. But I do have alot of cross bracing on the top of the cage and the c-pillar. This will help redirect forces throughout the cage--so its still not cross braced but a hell of alot stronger than a non braced cage at the b-pillar.

 

[Hip]

Ok maybe these are dumb assed questions, but I have not see them addressed in this thread and I think it applies.


2.The accident that spawned this thread was extreme to say the least, so should we all be building cages for this extreme or for the much more normal slow speed flops and rolls that we encounter?

Myself, I think building for the extreme is too much over kill for the wheeling I have seen here in WA and UT, but if your going to get into Racing like Pook is doing or like King of the Hammers, then I think the extreme is the correct cage build to go with.

most accidents happen when not wheeling per say, we built all this flex and unstability at speed into our rigs and they become very safe at slow speeds, but not so at higher speeds, what about when you have to take evasive action on the road to your wheeling destination. that is where violent crashes and multiple rollovers happen as you are ran off the road at speed. do you want to survive that also? i do. so i build my **** accordingly. of all the wheelers that have been seriously hurt the rollover happened on the forest service road or when least expecting it. IMHO

build it for the unexpected roll.:awesomework:

 

[Damnyankee]

And thats why I started this thead.

True--but you are still working with shorter spans. Take my rig for example. I have no cross bracing at the b-pillars and that was due to being able to get into the back seat of the rig. I had to make a diecision. But I do have alot of cross bracing on the top of the cage and the c-pillar. This will help redirect forces throughout the cage--so its still not cross braced but a hell of alot stronger than a non braced cage at the b-pillar.

Word.
I would like to have a cross brace at the B pillar as well, and i've contemplated cutting through the body to add a brace, but with the family, i need to keep the rear accessible.
One thing some people don't know either is that bends in you tubeing actually make it more ridged (work hardening) The only place i've bent my cage (from hard impact) is on the stright sections. But i can drop my 5k lb rig on one of the Bends, and has no effect. I pushed to hard on a straight section (near the stinger) and put a wowy in it.

 

[jprcrpr94]

build it for the unexpected roll.:awesomework:

I couldn't agree more:awesomework:

 

[jeepmauler]

... Thats a faaaaar cry from welding a tie in plate to laminated 18 gauge sheetmetal don't ya think? :;
:

Just re-found this at the tail end of my break

You assume that the tie in plates are "just" welded to the body or outer most layer of formed sheet metal....In key places XJ chassis's are 5/16+ thick with all the overlapping layers of sheet metal that are spot welded together.......floor plates ,through bolted in these areas (as well as stitched) are brutally strong.....this isn't theory.......I tried and proved it to be ultimetly strong. It just takes more thought to work with the unibody......looks like it's just too much for you to comprehend:flipoff:

 

[WHITE TRASH1]

Just re-found this at the tail end of my break

You assume that the tie in plates are "just" welded to the body or outer most layer of formed sheet metal....In key places XJ chassis's are 5/16+ thick with all the overlapping layers of sheet metal that are spot welded together.......floor plates ,through bolted in these areas (as well as stitched) are brutally strong.....this isn't theory.......I tried and proved it to be ultimetly strong. It just takes more thought to work with the unibody......looks like it's just too much for you to comprehend:flipoff:

You assume that I base my distrust of the cherocar on nothing... I have seen first hand many times that a unibody will tear itself apart. I have also cut an xj apart and examined the laminated chassis. Sure you can band aid this and plate that until your head explodes but why bother when every other popular rig out there has a frame to build off of?

 

[dja410]

From what ive seen alot of these cage failures are breaking and tearing right after the weld. Billy bobs sells those nice little lazor cut gussets. From the looks of things these gussets would help keep the joint nice and ridged. I know they dont fit in every corner but if you take some steel and cut out triangles to fit in all the jointed areas and weld them up would you guys think that would help out alot or is it just a waste of time. Those lazor cut gussets at billy bobs are only 4 bucks a peice. I put them all over the place whene i build crossmembers,bumpers,any kind of tube work they look nice and seem to help with strength.