DNR Funding:

[Ty.]

You guys are romanticizing the past .

You're right, I am.. I miss Reiter more than I can put into words. All the fun lines at Evans are blocked off. -NO 222.. Elbe is getting played out,(Not at all becouse it sucks, becouse it doesn't, but becouse I go there a lot) and, I don't have any Grey area's to play. ( I wish I did) Quite frankly my "other" areas, are not grey, they are completelly illigal, and I don't really like pushing my luck. Already had my warning at one of them.

Bottome line is, I am hurtin' bro. PM me just one BYS-222 grey area style trail so I can posse up, and get my fix.:squirrel:

 

[Money Mark]

Quite frankly my "other" areas, are not grey, they are illigal, and I don't really like pushing my luck. Already had my warning at one of them.

Solace: When/if the chopping block comes down, those area's might see more recreation visitor's that just you.:;

 

[NotSoPC]

Get informed. Understand what the problem is and talk to folks that are active in the process of resolution. My go to guy is "nowires" (Charlie). He is knee deep in this ****. Telephone conversations with the right people are worth your efforts.:awesomework:

Ask questions. Get answers. Only then can you propose a real solution.

I do understand that a big part of the issue is funds and I was simply tossing out an idea of one way to help with it. If as a wheeling community can fund the areas that we use then we will be able to use them for much longer then not. Plates are one idea.

I would love to be able to attend meetings like some of you do and I support those who are right in the thick of it. The truth is that with a family on one income I have to work ALL the overtime I can get my hands on and have little time for much else (hence why my wheeler is sitting half finished). I hope that in the near future I will be able to attend meetings in my area. Maybe then I will be able to toss out an idea and get more of a response then get to it or get informed.:beer:

 

[Mark m.]

So they give you a $10,000 fine and you spend $4,000 to get it reduced to $1,500 and 200 hours community service.


Who won

What ever not worried about it. You believe in the tooth fairy too I bet.

 

[Mark m.]

I've heard rumors that (after the merger of the DNR & WSFW and the "parking pass" is written into law) photo and video evidence of resource damage could become admissible in court cases, such as this.



Ya....uh-oh.:eeek: But it's just a rumor....for now.

So now your one of those guys spreading rumers too

 

[crash2]

You're right, I am.. I miss Reiter more than I can put into words.

Believe me I am right with ya.. Heck we bough new quads for the kids so they could follow me around out there...

 

[Money Mark]

Maybe then I will be able to toss out an idea and get more of a response then get to it or get informed.:beer:

You want to be heard. I understand. We hear you. Now what?

 

[Travis1]

I've heard rumors that (after the merger of the DNR & WSFW and the "parking pass" is written into law) photo and video evidence of resource damage could become admissible in court cases, such as this.

Ya....uh-oh.:eeek: But it's just a rumor....for now.

It's admissible now. What normally hurts you is not having easily identifiable pictures of the people. Without that, the pictures are largely useless because you can't prove who the driver was that did the damage.

Sounds like they are talking about game cameras though. Not a new concept.

You have to understand that IF Reiter was pressured into a temporary re-opening, the DNR would only open Deer Flats Rd......a gravel road. The non-motorized section (the area where half the old 4x4 trails are) wouldn't be re-open to ORV's. And the 4x4's could not go on the upper sections (where the other half of old 4x4 trails are) where the future bike trails are. So that leaves you with the future 4x4 area. Not much there dude.......not much at all.

You guys are romanticizing the past and not realistic about the present......and God forbid you consider the future.

Bottom line: Reiter would not be re-opened as you knew it. Disappointed you would be.

I just can't imagine reiter being reopened without being built first. They would want designated trails for people to be on in their designated area which doesn't exist today, correct?

Much easier solution. Find DNR land that allows for 'on-road' ORV use. There are still a bunch of these areas around western Washington. This allows you to legally park your truck and trailer AND wheel your ORV tabbed rig on the logging roads.

While the trails might be illegal, at least your tow rig and wheeling rig won't be cited if seen on the road. I guess I find it as you're being 50% legal instead of 0% legal. Should get brownie points for trying, right?

Yeah, that's not going to work. If you have a tow rig and trailer sitting on a legal spot on the road and you go off the road, you will get busted if the E&E wants to wait for you.

1st, it's easy to spot fresh tire tracks going off the road.

2nd, you are going to have a hard time explaining any fresh mud on your rig when you come back to the trailer. I haven't seen a open for use DNR road yet with a mudhole (not waterhole) in middle of it.

3rd, ORV tabbed rigs can't legally run DNR logging roads. Just ask the dirbikes and quads. Gotta be a street licensed vehicle. If you know of a specific place that allows it, I'de love to hear it.

 

[Money Mark]

So now your one of those guys spreading rumers too

Ok. It wasn't a rumor. It was speculated info from the meeting last night. That better?:hi:

 

[japerry]

While Reiter isn't ideal, it certainly has the 'draw' to be reopened. But if any rally was to be dreamed up, it would be to open everything that was there before closure, with the exception of sac-up (which was decomissioned) and may creek....

And before I hear people say 'oh but those places would be destroyed too, all the work we did! etc, etc, etc.. look at May creek. it was closed for a good 6 months, and very few went back. Same could be done with sac-up... and perhaps I'm missing some other trails that were cleaned up. And when DNR gets the real funding to make the project go, it can start up again, and the place can be closed down for construction.

Anywho, a rally for a 'new' place with new trails, etc would be fine and dandy, but do people running those secret trails really want to be revealed to DNR? I certainly wouldn't. I'm not trying to romantice the past, rather I'm looking at the landscapes closest to seattle with an already in-place infrastructure to handle traffic and trails.

But the biggest reason to open up Reiter again? To pressure DNR to pressure the legislature to fully fund the project. If we let it sit around, people will die off and get complacent... From an environmentalist and public policy standpoint, the Reiter problem is 'fixed'. They got it closed. The 'new' reiter is to convince us to A) support the closure and B) keep the ORV community working with DNR.

DNR would love to see an ORV park, but thats a future thing, its not a problem in their eyes right now. Government is a reactionary entity. We need to give them something to react to.

Having 200 people march on the steps of the capitol probably won't do anything.

Having 200 people show might and wheel reiter on a rally day? it'll do something.

 

[Money Mark]

I just can't imagine reiter being reopened without being built first. They would want designated trails for people to be on in their designated area which doesn't exist today, correct?

Re-opening (what's left of) Reiter is a stupid and desperate idea. I believe we're on the same page, no?

 

[Money Mark]

Having 200 people show might and wheel reiter on a rally day? it'll do something.

Unless you are willing to spearhead this whole thing, it's dead before being considered.

 

[Money Mark]

Not a new concept.

Actually getting caught and fined is though.....on a mass scale.

And don't argue with me.....we're saying the same thing.

 

[Travis1]

Re-opening (what's left of) Reiter is a stupid and desperate idea. I believe we're on the same page, no?

Without E&E there to enforce, absolutely a stupid idea.

It would take one day before people would start hitting the old trails again, and that kind of PR, we really don't need.

 

[crash2]

Re-opening (what's left of) Reiter is a stupid and desperate idea. I believe we're on the same page, no?

I agree.

We need to take the heat in a proper direction. We need to start at top and not directly with the DNR--needs to be done above them. Those who have been paying attention will understand right now its a matter of funding and thats something the DNR can only do so much about.

If we want to do something IMO that would have the best chance of making an impact and thats at there door or anything that gets into the door.

 

[japerry]

Yeah, that's not going to work. If you have a tow rig and trailer sitting on a legal spot on the road and you go off the road, you will get busted if the E&E wants to wait for you.

1st, it's easy to spot fresh tire tracks going off the road.

2nd, you are going to have a hard time explaining any fresh mud on your rig when you come back to the trailer. I haven't seen a open for use DNR road yet with a mudhole (not waterhole) in middle of it.

3rd, ORV tabbed rigs can't legally run DNR logging roads. Just ask the dirbikes and quads. Gotta be a street licensed vehicle. If you know of a specific place that allows it, I'de love to hear it.

First, DNR roads are non-highway roads. Therefore RCW states that ORVs are allowed to be on them. Except when otherwise specified that its open to street legal vehicles for on-road use only. A sign is required for this.

Secondly, having dirt or mud on your rig and returning to your tow vehicle does not give a preponderance of evidence that you caused resource damage or went off-trail. DNR could not prosecute based on your truck being dirty.

Third, tire tracks are much harder to track than you think (trust me, I've tried.. its HARD! except in snow ..:. Again, like mud on the truck, it would be close to impossible to show probable cause. They would have to be waiting at the entrance (exit?) and catch you coming out of a trail. But with most 'grey areas' having 10s to hundreds of miles of trail, its going to be pretty hard to sit at one and catch a few people coming out of it.

In short... if you're going to wheel in a grey area and an LEO shows up, make sure you have updated tabs, seatbelts, etc, etc just as if you were at Walker. Whatever ticket they would write at walker at the entrance, they're going to look for at any of these grey areas. They have done this in some grey areas before. They will also warn you not to go off the logging road. If an LEO gives you this advice, I'd highly suggest following it (that day). He may or may not decide to leave the parking area all day... but just in case, I'd be a good little wheeler and explore the hundreds of miles of logging road available to us :awesomework:

 

[Travis1]

Actually getting caught and fined is though.....on a mass scale.

And don't argue with me.....we're saying the same thing.

Certainly not arguing.

But even with a game camera, I think it's going to be hard to prove their case, that is if the camera isn't stolen or destroyed in the first place. I'll be honest, doing forest watch, I've spotted people way the fawk off trail in clear green area in the ORV park no less. Even with a telephoto lens and being there in person I've had a hell of a time catching faces on film in the past.

So the only way I see that working well on any scale is if they just start targeting vehicle owners the same way they do at red light cameras. License plates and "unique" vehicles are easy to identify.

Also, when I've talked to DNR people about this in the past, I was talking about building a wireless camera setup. Ok, you just destroyed the camera, too bad the recorder is somewhere in a 18 acre area.

 

[NotSoPC]

You want to be heard. I understand. We hear you. Now what?

http://www.dol.wa.gov/vehicleregistration/spcreatenew.html

I cant do it on my own but have asked to get the packet e-mailed to me to see what all needs to done. Willing to help?

 

[japerry]

O.M.G..

folks. you just don't get it! we're NOT BIG ENOUGH.

Does one little mosquito flying around prompt you to put on bug spray? No. You probably wouldn't even notice it.

After that mosquito bites you, do you end up putting on bug spray? Yes.

Translation: begging for NOVA or a fair user fee will get us nowhere. There are 10-15 other groups out there asking the same thing, wanting a piece of the pie. We're not going to win that fight in an economic deficit.

What will get us somewhere is putting DNR into triage mode. Putting them in a position where they have to go "OH ****, we have a problem and we need to solve it. NOW." We don't have any money to ticket and prosecute 500 people.. plus it'd be a big PR boondogle. Opps. Well we better see what we can do to mitigate the problem and make ORV users happy until we get money to fix it right. It has worked with other user groups, and can work for us :;

This is why I think rallying for old reiter might actually work. I'm not for opening deer flats and proclaiming the rest closed.. because this will look bad for us. Go big (all of reiter as I mentioned above) or go home.

 

[Money Mark]

So the only way I see that working well on any scale is if they just start targeting vehicle owners the same way they do at red light cameras. License plates and "unique" vehicles are easy to identify.

Bingo! They won't get us all. But all they need are few poor souls used as examples. We'll learn from them.

This whole thing should be irrelevant to folks that follow the rules. :corn: You follow the rules, right Travis?