IBP's versus Bypasses

[BUG-E J]

Everybody that rides in or drives my buggy always compliments how well it rides. I'm probably the only person that can drive it fast enough to make the back bottom out but it will. I'm pretty sure it's at the limits of 2.0 emulsions:****:

 

[BUG-E J]

I took gregg Carey up violator and showtime at chocco and he looked at me and said man I wish my buggy climbed like that

 

[wizzo]

Okay not to highjack this but..What does a tuning session run????

Varies by the tuner for the most part. Message me if you want to discuss what you have and what your goal is.

kmcminn & BUG-EJ -- Adding resi's and valving to go with them, will make a world of difference. I'd do that before I did anything else. If you're running Fox or Radflo, you'd be looking at about $1000 to add resi's, new seals, new oil and a tune on 4 shocks.

 

[BUG-E J]

I'm about to need that monies for the next upgrade. I dont think it's my shocks holding me back yet

 

[slravenel]

I'm about to need that monies for the next upgrade. I dont think it's my shocks holding me back yet

If you are driving it to the point of bottoming them out....they are holding you back

I promise you, its one of the most important upgrades anyone can make on their rig. Shock tuning on a high tier trail and/or racing buggy should be as standard as beadlocks at this point in the game

 

[BUG-E J]

If you are driving it to the point of bottoming them out....they are holding you back

I promise you, its one of the most important upgrades anyone can make on their rig. Shock tuning on a high tier trail and/or racing buggy should be as standard as beadlocks at this point in the game

Mine have been tuned 3 times. When it starts going faster I'll worry about it. I promise you right now power is lacking way over ride quality

 

[slravenel]

Mine have been tuned 3 times. When it starts going faster I'll worry about it. I promise you right now power is lacking way over ride quality

probably beating a dead horse here.... and please dont take this the wrong way as I'm mostly talking in general terms here, not just talking at you; but this is also kinda part of my point. Its not just about speed - that is a big player in it, sure...but the performance is so obvious even at slower speeds, or when you are bumping an obstacle, or you are having to stick a line, or hook a certain lip of a rock, etc

Shock tuning is not one dimensional. I dont know who tuned your shocks those 3 times, and I am certainly not going to just badmouth them, but if its still bottoming out and that person hasnt been able to address that and hasnt recommended even adding a standard resi to the equation, they arent doing it justice.

What motor setup are you running right now? I would take an anemic 4 cyl and well tuned shocks over 1000hp and bottoming out 2.0 emulsions every single day of the week. Talking in speed terms though... More power = more speed = more bottoming out = less performance. Correctly working suspension = more speed = more performance. You are gaining speed both ways!

 

[BUG-E J]

Jimmy penner tuned them all 3 times. When I say it bottoms out I dont think you understand. In the race last weekend I felt it bottom 2 times and once was after the race taking my ol lady up the race hills. It's a SBC 350-400 horses. Alot of shock tuning from what I have been through is personal preference also. The set I had done on my red buggy I had set up alot stiffer than these

 

[Neal3000]

Varies by the tuner for the most part. Message me if you want to discuss what you have and what your goal is.

kmcminn & BUG-EJ -- Adding resi's and valving to go with them, will make a world of difference. I'd do that before I did anything else. If you're running Fox or Radflo, you'd be looking at about $1000 to add resi's, new seals, new oil and a tune on 4 shocks.

Man, that is a great price

 

[mac5005]

Late to the party here.

For most things 2.5s are better than 2.0's. When your sprung mass starts to become equal to unsprung mass, 2.5's can be problematic to tune and get a decent ride quality.

Not impossible, but that setup sucks to tune either way.

The initial crack pressure of getting the 2.5 shim stack to move vs getting the 2.0 stack to move, before it knocks your teeth out in the seat.

2.5s typically have some features that make working on them easier than 2.0's. How the coil hardware comes on/off, how the misalignments go into the uniballs, and also generally have better pistons than 2.0's.

Adding resi's to emulsions is a night and day difference coupled with a decent tune.

It takes a big change in valving to get the DSC to function well. You can get them to work better, but it takes a lot of time on the compression stack on the piston before you start to feel noticeable differences in the seat with dsc's.

They can be beneficial but that's a lot to spend for what you get. Spend not much more and you could just about be into a coil carrier/bypass setup.

Internal bypass are neat, can be more difficult to tune than others, depending on which ones they are. I wouldn't spend money on them.

 

[smbroady82]

All my current rigs and any going forward have/ will have valving for that particular rig and resis. , I've been watching/ riding with Lee, Wizzo and Phil and the difference it makes is unreal.

2.0s on the wife's (super light weight Angryfab toyota buggy, yota axles) and 2.5s on my big buggy (LS , 14bolts blah blah blah)

 

[kmcminn]

All my current rigs and any going forward have/ will have valving for that particular rig and resis. , I've been watching/ riding with Lee, Wizzo and Phil and the difference it makes is unreal.

2.0s on the wife's (super light weight Angryfab toyota buggy, yota axles) and 2.5s on my big buggy (LS , 14bolts blah blah blah)

They seem to really be making a difference on how the buggies climb.

 

[rpf500]

I had 2.0 non resi Fox rears and some Bilstein with resi fronts. Dicked with "tuning" myself on and off for 2 years. Finally ditched Bilstein, added 4 fox with resi's and sent to Wizzo. It's amazing what someone with tuning knowledge can do. I'll never run a non tuned suspension again.

 

[kmcminn]

Varies by the tuner for the most part. Message me if you want to discuss what you have and what your goal is.

-- Adding resi's and valving to go with them, will make a world of difference. I'd do that before I did anything else. If you're running Fox or Radflo, you'd be looking at about $1000 to add resi's, new seals, new oil and a tune on 4 shocks.

Have you added reservoirs to the ones Licardi has already tuned?

How much does the valving change when adding reserviors?

Obviously you are adding the hose and reservior to the shock.

When you have added reservoirs are you changing to top shock body cap? Or trying some magic through the tapped schrader valve hole?

When I talked to fox about this last year. They gave me some different options.

 

[wizzo]

Have you added reservoirs to the ones Licardi has already tuned?

How much does the valving change when adding reserviors?

Obviously you are adding the hose and reservior to the shock.

When you have added reservoirs are you changing to top shock body cap? Or trying some magic through the tapped schrader valve hole?

When I talked to fox about this last year. They gave me some different options.

Nothing I've added resi's to have been "tuned" before.

Valving changes b/c you have pure oil now instead of foamy oil. Foamy oil = less dampening.

When adding resi's to a newer fox or a radflo, it's simply, remove schrader, add fitting and then hose and reservoir with necessary parts.

 

[kmcminn]

Nothing I've added resi's to have been "tuned" before.

Valving changes b/c you have pure oil now instead of foamy oil. Foamy oil = less dampening.

When adding resi's to a newer fox or a radflo, it's simply, remove schrader, add fitting and then hose and reservoir with necessary parts.

Cool. I would like to see how much difference there is between what valve stacks are best from a "tuned" emulsion shock and a tuned RR shock.

Mine have been tuned by driving it and watching it. So I'm hoping they would be pretty close to whats needed after reservoirs are added, to cut cost on a tuning session.


Ok, so this what some tech guy at Fox Shox told me. He said that just adding a hose on an emulsion shock top cap, the tapped hole(7/16?) for the schrader valve wasn't as big as the tapped hole for the factory remote reservoir top cap(9/16). He said it would be fine on a shock with a 5/8 shaft but wouldnt let enough fluid flow into the reservoir for a shock with a 7/8 shaft. Then he told me I would need to change the top cap to a remote reservior cap and it would perform like it was designed to.


What size reservoirs have you been adding to these emulsion shocks?

I'm wanting to say he said for best performance they needed 11" reserviors?


Looking at parts on the kartec site. It looked like parts and a gallon of oil would be around 600 without shipping. But that is with the top caps fox recommened.

I'm asking this to see if there is a way to do this different than what the manufacturer recommened.

 

[wizzo]

Cool. I would like to see how much difference there is between what valve stacks are best from a "tuned" emulsion shock and a tuned RR shock.

Mine have been tuned by driving it and watching it. So I'm hoping they would be pretty close to whats needed after reservoirs are added, to cut cost on a tuning session.


Ok, so this what some tech guy at Fox Shox told me. He said that just adding a hose on an emulsion shock top cap, the tapped hole(7/16?) for the schrader valve wasn't as big as the tapped hole for the factory remote reservoir top cap(9/16). He said it would be fine on a shock with a 5/8 shaft but wouldnt let enough fluid flow into the reservoir for a shock with a 7/8 shaft. Then he told me I would need to change the top cap to a remote reservior cap and it would perform like it was designed to.


What size reservoirs have you been adding to these emulsion shocks?

I'm wanting to say he said for best performance they needed 11" reserviors?


Looking at parts on the kartec site. It looked like parts and a gallon of oil would be around 600 without shipping. But that is with the top caps fox recommened.

I'm asking this to see if there is a way to do this different than what the manufacturer recommened.

So for $1000 I'm including, resi parts, new seals & oil and valving. I can knock off some if you don't need seals & oil. Valving is not terribly expensive as long as it's fox or radflo. You're not gonna save a ton knocking off those items. The biggest expense is the resi parts by far.

IMO, you're wasting money changing caps. This isn't about fluid flow. This is about not aerating your oil right off the bat. Also, larger resi's is more about oil capacity and cooling than oil flow.

Now if we're talking bypass tubes, that's a different story.

Keep it simple McMinn!

 

[kmcminn]

So for $1000 I'm including, resi parts, new seals & oil and valving. I can knock off some if you don't need seals & oil. Valving is not terribly expensive as long as it's fox or radflo. You're not gonna save a ton knocking off those items. The biggest expense is the resi parts by far.

IMO, you're wasting money changing caps. This isn't about fluid flow. This is about not aerating your oil right off the bat. Also, larger resi's is more about oil capacity and cooling than oil flow.

Now if we're talking bypass tubes, that's a different story.

Keep it simple McMinn!

I agree on keeping it simple but a new cap is only 26 dollars retail.

 

[wizzo]

I agree on keeping it simple but a new cap is only 26 dollars retail.

That's $100. I get it, not the end of the world. But you're worried about "flow". That's just not the issue here. By adding a resi, yes, you are adding some oil capacity, which ultimately will help with oil temps some what. But mainly, you're getting the nitrogen out of the oil. Again, this mixture right of the bat with an emulsion shock hurts your dampening capabilities.

 

[TBItoy]

You are *kinda* worried about flow.
The shaft displaces oil and it has to shove exactly that amount of oil through the hose and into the reservoir, compressing the gas charge.
Not enough flow = Pressure spike/almost hydrolock situation in the shock.

That said, a 16" 7/8 dia shaft only displaces 5.3 oz of fluid... SO it's gonna take a very fast/hard hit to generate enough shock shaft speed to see any significant effect.

For $100, I'd do it just to take it out of the equation. Because I'd always have it in my head that it's there.